Canon Speaks Up, Special Third-Hand Unconfirmed Rumor Edition
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 at 7:02PM 
Don’t forget about the DSLR Cinematography course at fxphd! Click the image for more info.
This isn’t a camera rumors blog. It’s a whatever’s-on-Stu’s-mind blog (it’s good to specialize). Today, camera rumors are on my mind.
Recently on the Cinematography Mailing List, a member posted that at a public event, a Canon rep stated that 24p would never come to the 5D Mark II, that they would save it for the successor to the 1Ds Mark III.
It’s easy to imagine that such a camera body will be priced much higher than the 5D Mark II. The 1Ds III still sells for around US$6,900 (body only), and it’s almost two years old.
I was serious about the third-hand, unconfirmed thing. I’m telling you I heard this from a guy who heard this from a Canon guy, and that’s all I’m saying. Take it for what it is.
But of course I tweeted this, and I got some interesting replies. A few people said they’d heard the same thing, including @mikeseymour, and @planetMitch pointed out that Chuck Westfall has publicly tried to manage expectations about 24p ever coming to the 5D Mark II, pointing out that simply adding manual control took nine months.
Some folks on Twitter seemed confident that this camera is coming as soon as August.
I never thought I would own a $7,000 SLR body, but if Canon does this right, then I just might. See, I have a dirty little secret. Now that the 5D Mark II has manual exposure control, I’ve come to really enjoy shooting video with it. Even when I’m not in Japan.
Here’s what I think. I think Canon is taking video seriously, and I think they’ve heard our requests for 24p. I still do not think that they are intentionally crippling video in their DSLRs to protect camcorder sales (see the “attribute to malice” theory). I believe Westfall when he insinuates that getting 24p out of the 5D Mark II is non-trivial task. I also think that Canon is probably keenly interested in reserving some desirable features for their flagship full-frame SLR. In other words, I think the Canon SLR division worries about cannibalizing itself, not other Canon divisions. They have heard from folks like me that professional filmmakers need 24p. So they might just be saving 24p for their professional camera.
As if the 5D Mark II wasn’t used by pros.
And as if 24p wasn’t of interest to filmmakers at all budget levels.
If one wants to find evidence of excitement about 24p being offered in a truly, ridiculously affordable camera, one needs only to look to the release of the HV20, a sub-$1,000 24p HD camcorder from a company called Canon.
Canon, if you’re thinking that pros are going to line up to buy your most expensive camera body just because it does 24p, well, you might be right.
Unless someone else does it for cheaper.
Or better. If your 24p masterpiece is priced for video pros, it had damn well be a real pro video camera. That means no crappy line-skipping aliasing, no noticeable rolling-shutter jello, focus assist modes, a flip-out viewfinder, and HD monitoring while recording to a gently-compressed codec.
You know, all the stuff that Scarlet is supposed to have. For somewhere around $7,000.
You wanna go pro with DSLR video Canon? By all means, please do. But 24p is just the first step toward that goal.
I, for one, hope that you’ll still consider a 24p update to the 5D Mark II.
Reader Comments (38)
Couldn't agree more Stu.
This is a hardware problem that isn't worth Canon addressing in the 5DMkii.
I hope they are thinking SEVERAL steps ahead, however as the Scarlet will, when released, be a (hopefully) HUGE leap forward in indy filmmaker with it's reportedly5k resolution on the S35 model.
It is a good time to be an indy film maker!
I wholeheartedly agree especially with the latter part.
If they are indeed reserving this for a "pro" model camera like the 1DsIV then they damn well better nail it or they just screwed themselves into a corner. by not trickling down certain features they risk alienating a portion of the community further by narrowing even more the options available to it.
Hopefully RED hears the call and has pulled a coup out of its sleeve in developing a kick-ass stills side to its DSMC promise.
These companies have taken years and years to develop their stills capabilities in areas like AF especially, so I'm super curious to see what RED manages to figure out for their take on it.
either way we the "pro" consumer win as they all try to woo us with options we've already told them we want.
I personally need BOTH 24p and 30p. I am afraid that when a 24p camera comes out from Canon it will have just that. Unfortunately, for music video slow-mo I need 30p, so I can then slow-it down 25% and get 24p and have that special eerie music video look. I can shoot 30p right now with the 5D. But there will be scenes that I would also need real 24p, in normal speeds (non-slowmo). So for music video work, both frame rates are needed IMHO. And I don't see this happening, I think Canon will offer only one or the oher.
I posted in the forum on this, too. Stu, whatever happened with that whole GH1 thing? It's not available in the stores (supposedly it was supposed to be early July). You were pretty fired up about that one originally. . . .
I wouldn't count out Nikon just quite yet either. So far they've only gotten 1 thing right (the 24p), but hopefully they too are listening to what everyone wants. Nikon doesn't have the same cannibalization issue with a video division, whether it exists or not. So far I think they have missed out on a great opportunity, as it is clear the 5D Mark II is pretty close to what a lot of people want.
I would love for the Scarlet to be that camera, but I don't have much faith as of now that the photography side is going to be anywhere near as robust as the Nikon or Canon cameras. For $7000, it sure would be nice if it could do both well, especially if Nikon or Canon can offer us something close on the video side. Either way there are going to be compromises - hopefully they are not painful ones.
Very, very good point Eugenia. "Pro" means a *choice* of frame rate, and yes, shooting 30-for-24 is a marvelous thing to do. In fact, it's all I currently do with my 5D.
Uhm, Matt, if you think you agree with me you might want to read the post again. :)
My bad....too much Yuengling.... :p
I have to admit that I get perfectly usable 24p by running the 30p footage through Shake though.
@Matt Gottshalk
Please explain what your process for 30p>24p conversion is.
So far, I've seen people try a number of methods via various applications on PC and Mac and nothing did it quite right, although Philip Bloom has shown some fairly good results with 24p conversions using cinema tools.
Yeah, lets not forget about the GH1 at $1500 with adapters for lenses from Canon (EOS &FD), Nikon, Pentax, Olympus and what not... and of course Hotrodcameras' prowess that adds PL mount to the mix...
Of course it's not perfect, but the price is!
T ; )~
I still don't understand why we're suddenly getting a negative on the 24p aspect, when for months all we've been hearing was insider confirmation that 24p was already being tested and I distinctly recall some folks practically promising it. I'm feeling kind of bummed about it now. I'll wait for a little while longer into the fall of 2009, and if no 24p solution arrives in the form of firmware update or software workaround it'll go on the auction block and I'll use that cash towards the D700x, which if HD enabled will most definitely have 24p.
Everybody's forgetting another major point here: PAL-land. Canon has introduced the abominable more-FPS-is-better paradigm, and other companies (Pentax, Samsung) are following suit. Only Panasonic has not forgotten that the world does not start in Tokyo and ends in NYC. Even for a family movie, a (rather large) part of the world wants a something which plays well on the TV in the living room, and does not flicker in artificial light. It's not just the 5D- it's the ^$&$%^&ing lineup! FYI, From 25p to 24p the conversion is a breeze. Overlooking such a major part of the client base is quite the insult, and makes me want to trade all my Canon gear for a company which remembers "the old country(ies)". In the whole "is 24p better than 30p" almost everyone has overlooked our plight. Such a shame.
Is there such a thing as 30p to 25p? Or is that just not doable? PAL land user here too, a PAL Panny seems to be it, after that last update. I heard lots about 24p being tested on Iron Man 2 again just a rumour somewhere on DVXuser.
So yeah, PAL would negate the need for 24p on my end.
Jim de Red put on a post that really sounds like they're not releasing anything before next summer basically. I for one am over the RED thing. Call me crazy, lots of people have, but I'm waiting on the DSLR's to get better. I have my strange and odd reasons.
I actually purchased my MKii already having received the same information. I was told "Manual Controls early Summer, 24P never". So I bought one anyway knowing that it'd keep its resale value -- thank gahd that the camera is a still camera first -- when it was time to jump to the next 24p Camera.
Sadly, the GH-1 just isn't available right now. =T And even worse, by the time availability is good in the US even Panasonic might have released a new addition to their line-up.
If the 1DS MKiii has 24P, 30P, TimeCode, better rolling shutter reign in and all of that other stuff, I'll jump ship quick swiftly. I think the thing I least expect to change is the aliasing, but eh.
What can you do.
Hi all,
So well said Stu and usual...thou one thing I might add...
it his is upposed to be pro...then use a file format that supports better temporal space and color space...H.264...arg
It would also be nice to have sort of RAW format...larger than HD...but then hey Scarlet is supposed to do that...for under 7K...
:)
Cheers,
Ray Adams
a long voice calling out from the desert...or at least it seems to be ;)
Next stop on the rebel wish list express could be Nikon D700x? Full frame, 1080P and the D5000's vari angle LCD, 24P from the D90 but hold the Jello?
but until that then, it was as if millions of voices had suddenly cried out .....shit.
and i was going to buy my 5d mkii today ...
This all sounds great, but I seem to be in the minority about caring for an upcoming dead format like 24fps. Once projection is universally digital, won't we all be paying an extra 3K for the privilege of shooting the film equivalent of Latin? Fresco paintings look great as well, but try to get a new one!
Canon probably will release a pro camera body this Fall, but I don't think it will be a 1ds. It will most likely be the 1d mk iv or mk v because the number four is bad luck in Japan. The 1d mk iii retails for $4499. I would hope they ad 24p HD video in both 1d and the 1ds that should be released after the 1d.
Hey,
I'm quite concerned about the 24p - 25p issue because I think about buying a GH1 but I try to get an NTSC-Model although I live in PAL-land. But I'm not sure if it's worth the effort. Of course, the difference between slowdowned PAL and native 24p is small but if you want to get from 25p to NTSC for whatever reason you have to do a slowdown and 3:2 pulldown together which might be one step to much. It's hard to get clear opinions about this topic.
Okay, another advantage of the NTSC model is the 60p mode which allows 1/2,5 Slomo instead of the 1/2 of the PAL model. (50->25).
Cheers
nikon will get it right this time. Swivel display and FF 24p .... raw video workflow
Clearly, the DSLR w/ video capabilities is the next evolution in the indy world. Canon needs to recognize that this is also redefining the way a film can be made and the kind of content that can be generated. If they set the entry at $10k (w/ lens or two), Canon will miss the option of it happening with their gear setting themselves up to be the Bolex of modern storytelling.
Someone else will come forward and deliver the goods. I for one hope it is Canon but, in the end I don't care who it is. Just give me my primes and my boom.
-gl
Would it be possible to deceive the camera directly with time. I mean to slow down the clock (or clocks) 20 % . All the processes would be a 20% slower, but at 24p.
Hi Stu and All,
Well for me this comes down to a couple of issues,
Market and Costs
With RED coming out with the much more versitile Scarlet system that will do variable frame rates, can use a higher color & dynamic range raw image/format, can be used for pickup & FX shots, hopefully will address the rolling shutter issues, and can address various audio issues...etc...all for 4-10 grand....
Cannon, only windows its sensors, had a limited color and dynamic range due to them using H.264 format...can't be used easily for pickups/FX shots, doesn't support variable frame rates, etc...etc...
The market for the DSLR is between 1-4 grand for the package...making it higher will limit its penetration...and will loose the prosumer markets...Cannon really can't compete with the RED offerings due to the limitations of their units & processes.
Adding the needed support to only their higher end backs...still with limitation will only show that this is a interesting experiment..but will be too diffcult to use and get the results needed.
Cheers,
Ray Adams
I'd love to see Canon's better video come to the 60D. Sure, it's a crop-frame, but it's still about the size of a RED One sensor. A smaller sensor means less wobble and compatibility with EF-S lenses, and fewer megapixels means better low light and a better likelyhood that we get scaling rather than binning. If the audio preamps get fixed, and the monitoring gets uncompressed, all it needs is a pivoting LCD screen to beat the Scarlet easily.
"I believe Westfall when he insinuates that getting 24p out of the 5D Mark II is non-trivial task."
Could someone please give a technical explanation of why it's more difficult to record at 24p compared to 30p (or 28p or 7.5p any other arbitrary frame rate)?
Forget the 24p. The video mode in this camera is crippled. We need 25p so we can use this camera outside North America!
Spacemonkey, the h264 hardware encoder that Canon has made part of the Digic 4 processor almost certainly has limitations hard-coded into it. It is extremely likely that bitrate, frame size, and frame rate are not adjustable in software because those are purely hardware functions that have been set at the etched-into-silicon level. JI Simon's suggestion is actually really neat; tricking the camera's clock into running at a low speed may be the only way to control the actual encoding of the frame rate, but unfortunately it could also have other consequences that might break other aspects of capture and processing. Application-specific integrated circuits are tricky things to hack, since they can't really be reprogrammed.
Thanks Isaac. This thread...
http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2494&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
seems to suggest that h.264 encoding is not being done on an ASIC, but on the camera's CPU: ARM946E-S.
If that's the case, then the prospects of a homebrew 24p hack may be brighter :)
Hi again All,
But why are we/Cannon dealing with H.264 at all?
Cannon should know that this is only a lower end distribution format.
and not a good format for production (editing/FX/finish)...it also lacks the ability to embed the color and dynamic range that the cmos is capable of..but due to the limitations of the color/dynamic/temporal of this format leaves this whole unit limited to useless.
Why use H.264?
It's not just a frame rate issue.
Ray Adams
Good point. Let's tap the uncompressed 14-bit raw data stream(like the Hydra on the HVX200). It's just a matter of finding the right pins to solder =)
I have just read an article about new Nikon D700 which will have more pixels 24.5 full 1080 24p and of course 35mm sensor. Don't forget the flip-out screen as well. So Canon, if you won't someone else will, and cheaper. And it will be coming this October. I know what I am buying, not Canon. Here is the link
spacemonkey -- the h.264 is definitely done in the DIGIC4. The ARM doesn't have anywhere near the speed to do it at even 1 fps. The ARM does set the encoding parameters in the DIGIC (like GOP length, Qscale, and one tantalizing parameter named TimeConst).
I can't imagine any sort of chip design that "bakes in" the framerate and don't believe that answer. We know that the chip supports variable frame rates -- the T1i uses the same DIGIC4 and does 20 fps without any problem. 1.1.0 has vestigal code that references 29.97 and 59.94 fps rates.
Likewise with the resolution. It can do 1080p, VGA and there are functions in the 1.1.0 firmware with names like "initializeH264EncodeFor720p".
What is clear to me is that Canon runs a very tight ship and is very concerned with ensuring quality software products. Based on my analysis, the version of the firmware that was tested on film sets was built in December of 2008, around the same time as the 1.0.7 update. They were silent about any coming upgrade for six months while rumors ran wild, until they were satisfied with it and made the official release of 1.1.0 in June. That is a long time without any leaks beyond third-hand rumors.
So if they are working on a 24p upgrade for the 5D Mark II body, we won't hear it from them until they are confident enough to ship it.
It does make a lot more sense that such a computationally expensive task as encoding h.264 would be done on the DIGIC4 and not on the ARM. I must've misunderstood this line from the above linked cinema5D.com thread: "* 24 FPS or > 30 FPS: Unknown at this time. 24 may be doable, greater than 30 might tax the already swamped CPU doing h.264 encoding"
Anyway, thanks for your hard work on Magic Lantern.
And so Nikon announced the D300s, which seems to have cured... absolutely none of Nikons shortcomings. I've about given up on them at this point.
What I'd really like to do is to talk some sense into the people responsible for this nonsense. Tell me where I can find them, and I'll set them straight.
BTW. Why won't they listen to you Stu. I mean, you're a bigshot, right?
The lack of 24p is not a technical problem.
It is a commercial problem.
Canon cannot sell a large-sensor consumer or prosumer SLR with 24 without cannibalising sales of their professional video gear.
The technology is here already.
The willingness to sell it is not.
C.