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Slugline. Simple, elegant screenwriting.
Red Giant Color Suite, with Magic Bullet Looks 2.5 and Colorista II
Monday, June 1, 2009 at 6:40PM It’s June 2 in Tokyo, and the manual exposure control firmware update for the Canon 5D Mark II is here.
Now set your shutter to 1/60 and get shooting!
Reader Comments (36)
if you're in PAL land, set shutter to 1/50 and check for no more strobing on neon and leds ... seems to work fine here, hurray !
Goodo!
So 'rhervag' have you tested this at 1/60th & 1/50th shutter @ 30fps in a 50hz power supply country?
Lighting flicker is a combination of shutter speed AND fps (usually fps more than shutter speed /angle) so interested so see some results!
I used to have all the charts but not any more
Now all we need is:
1. 24p support.
2. Zebra support.
3. Maintain the exposure compensation between takes.
Then the world would be perfect. :-)
I assume the PC/Mac app let's you create custom looks for the footage, e.g. saturation, contrast, color, etc. that you can later upload them to the camera.
Actually 50/60hx filming speed charts are here:
(for the geeky/knowledge thirsty/ chart fetishists)
http://www.panavision.com.au/Information/Flickerfree50Hz.htm
http://www.panavision.com.au/Information/Flickerfree60Hz.htm
"3. Maintain the exposure compensation between takes."
There is no exposure compensation in manual modes - just whatever settings you choose... and those are retained not just between takes but after power down and battery removal. Tramm's also demoed zebras in the magic lantern hack too...
JasonW : yes i am in france (50Hz) tested on basic lighs (worklights, eco-bulbs and neons look great). didn't check pro-lights yet.
there is a tremendous difference between 1/60th (unusable, flickering) & 1/50th (nice & stable).
Eugenia:
1. it's coming up in next update...
2. it's already in the magic lantern hack...
3. there is no exposure compensation between takes, just keep same iso and that's it
>1. it's coming up in next update...
I heard about it, but we don't know for sure. It's a rumor so far. I will believe it when I see it. ;-)
>2. it's already in the magic lantern hack...
I am not interested in hacks. I was the editor in chief of OSNews.com for years, a site about obscure OSes and geek software. I had so much of buggy products and hacks during that time, that I simply don't want to have anything to do with that level of quality anymore. If Canon doesn't add it, it doesn't exist for me.
>3. there is no exposure compensation between takes, just keep same iso and that's it
Yes. But I am talking about the auto mode. There might be times that you just want to snap something in auto. From what I heard -- I believe Philip Bloom wrote that -- the 5D doesn't retain the exposure compensation info between takes. Is this true?
Who, exactly, is going to be using auto exposure now that manual is available?
jason, not really, 1/50 is enough to avoid flicker since every frame is exposed to exactly 2 pulses of light, what part of the waveform doesn't matter. maybe you're thinking of roll bars? that's a function of frame rate as well. 1/50 is the same as 172.8° at 24 fps in the chart you posted (172,8/(24*360)=1/50). if you do the same math for all the angles you'll see that they all become 1/25, 1/50 or 1/100.
>Who, exactly, is going to be using auto exposure now that manual is available?
As I said above, people who want to snap something quickly. If you just see a UFO above your head, trust me, you don't have time for manual controls. ;-)
And yet, it would be nice to not have exposure jumps, so someone might want to lock exposure. This is why I am asking here, is exposure compensation loses the setting between takes/reboots?
You you dont get your UFO on the first take, you might be out of luck. I dont think he'll wait around for you to reslate and go again.
I never shoot auto, so I'm not 100% sure, but since I have 10 years of DSLR experience, once you push/hold your exposure lock button, then exposure is locked. Once you release, so is the exposure, only to be locked again when you push exposure lock again. Repeatability is the domain of MANUAL, something new each time is the domain of AUTO. At least in DSLRs. You can always AUTO expose on the UFO's first pass, look at the settings in your fancy-dancy viewfinder, then switch to MANUAL and SET the camera to the settings that AUTO chose.
But watch out, UFOs are tricky. They'll start flashing lights at you and they can sometimes be bright, so even then you might not get the exposure right, even if you are smart enough to shoot AUTO to get it.
and still no more news from Nikon other than that rumor several months ago?
Mattias we're discussing 50hz power supply countries and how to avoid flicker from non incandescent lighting. If the MkII only shoots 30fps (29.97??) and my lighting is pulsing at 50hz "every frame is exposed to exactly 2 pulses of light" isnt correct
Stu, what is your view on this?
http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2877
I really don't see any reasons you would stick to the 180 degree shutter hopping to get the same looks as 180 degree on a 24fps camera...
some background about flicker/pulsing:
with 1/50 sec shutter speed on 50Hz lighting, all fps rates will result in flicker free images. 25fps, 30fps, 21.324211fps, doesnt matter ;)
as mattias says, the reason for this is that the amount of light emmited in the time for one exposure (ie 1/50 sec) will always be the same, no matter what phase the AC power is at the moment of exposure.
(this can easily be shown mathematically by drawing a 50Hz sine wave and calculating the interval (the area under the curve, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral) for a random piece of 1/50 sec - it will always be the same).
the reason we need those charts with film cameras is that for a given shutter angle, the exposure time is linked to the frame rate.
for the non-safe frame rates, we need a fps/angle combination that gives us 1/50 sec exposure (or a clean multiple/fraction of it).
for the safe filming speeds, the shutter angle (and therefore exposure time) doesn't matter because the exposure start will stay "in sync" with the 50Hz wave, so even with 1/671 sec exposure we get exactly the same amount of light for every image (although for very short exposures and discharge lamps, there could be a significant difference in total exposure between different takes, but none of them will flicker).
chris
i'm upping this series of shots on a european 60w lightbulb for those who want to check the huge difference it makes. (download original file for accurate comparison)
http://www.vimeo.com/4972364
Eugenia, the 5D is really really not designed to be a point and shoot video camera.
With that said, I just checked on my 5D MkII, and the camera does indeed maintain exposure compensation between takes or reboots. So there's nothing to worry about.
Vlad, there's no need to get philosophical about it — a film camera (generally) can't shoot slower than a 180 degree shutter, so 1/50th at 30fps is impossible on film. If you want a film-like look at 30fps, use 1/60.
Great thanks rhervag, downloading your clip and stewing over it, much appreciated. doing my head in that you can get ANY flicker at all with reasonably high wattage incandescents!
As with your observations chris thanks. Although im sure your right, but im having trouble with the logic. 12 years as a 1st AC tells me 33.333 was the only shutter independent speed around that area and a couple of other very specific speeds if you can get as equally specific with your shutter - which a modern film camera of course can (and im sure the 5D CANNOT!) .. so real world testing is the only way.. so off to rhervag's clips i go
hi jason,
jup, real world testing beats any theory (specially with things like rolling shutter on CMOS readouts etc).. sometimes it's nice to know what to expect though, it can help to set up tests in a optimal way (and even to verify if canon implemented their stuff properly).
i think you're still used to film cameras where you set the shutter *angle* and as mentioned, there the frame rate has a big influence (because it changes the exposure time). with digital cameras we can keep the exposure time constant on different frame rates without worrying about the angle (as there is none), which opens up this new concept. if people here are interested i could try to draw some diagrams which show the mathematical/physical reason.
chris
here is a cool video showing the new control over shutter speed.
http://www.vimeo.com/4970144
50hz vs 60 Hz
In larger buildings you have 3 phases, shifted in 120° steps. Which makes it more flicker free, well, if the installment was not e.g. one phase on the left, one in the middle and the 3rd phase on the right side in the room, which would result in a wavy footage.
To compare those 50 and 60 Hz, you have to know such thing as well, to not get wrong data.
180° Shutter, in general the max in terms of being open, specially not with mirrored reflex shutter for the viewfinder.
Having said that, there is an variable shutter explained in James Monaco (How to read Film), page 91
The Film transport is the limit then, it needs to be still of course.
Ben, sounds good then! I would only need 24p and zebra support then!
I hope this pushes Nikon to update the D90 with more manual control. Reducing the rolling shutter would be cool too.
Excellent point chris that my brain has to unlearn, yes those charts are kinda old hat based on the fact that angle (speed ) is mechanically dependant on fps.. which even in the panaviosion world it is not.
and yes as you say we have the added factor of cmos rolling which needs testing to be sure against
What i cant get my head around is seeing a pulse in footage of an incandescant light which theoreticall is a bright enough wattage bulb to not see the element 'cooling down and heating up' fast enough to register.. but there it is!
i knew to avoid leds and neons but regular eco-bulbs can pulse too which i can't explain either.
like mics will pickup hum from unshielded and badly grounded set-ups, i've seen all kinds of weird flickering happen when waving around the cam in auto-mode especially in older buildings.
so i'm going to check some city-lights tonight (pavement leds, parking lot signs, etc...) and report my findings.
I enjoyed and still enjoy osnews.com. Outside of theinquirer.net, it's one of my favorite places to get info.
Yay for manual controls. Now all we need is 24fps, 1-120fps ramping range (via the scrolly dial, which makes perfect sense) w/ iris compensated exposure, 3G HS-SDI output and, finally, a better handstrap. Oh wait, this camera doesn't shoot 3D either? Guess I'm waiting for the MkIII.
See ya' in 2011 :)
rhervag
'eco' bulbs will of course give some flicker being a fluoro bulb probably with a high speed ballast i guess but a fluorescent none the less, but a regular 60watt bulb.. thats interesting, be keen to see a 100 watter :-)
Jason & all
as promised, there you have it : neons, leds, bulbs and pretty much every unexpected issue i had at night with 50Hz lights exposed and fixed.
http://www.vimeo.com/4991966
Hey Stu, have you had a chance to try and convert your 30p footage to 24p via cinematools + compressor (with best motion compensation) or using AE/Magic Bullet? Specifically, have you tried it with Chapter 12 ? If so, what were your results like?
DOFadapters are starting to become more of a hassle to work with, so I'm teetering back and forth here -- I don't know whether to wait for Scarlet (even then, it's lowlight and DOF probably won't be like the 5DmkIIs and rendering out of REDcode is a big time/space waster) or settle for a GH1 knowing it has everything right out of the box (with a cruddy codec being it's major achilles heel.) Or put up with the adapters for a few months longer to see what shakes loose from Canon/Pana/Sony's video divisions. Any thoughts?
-Mike
hi mike,
i've tried to convert 30p footage (coming from a 5DMkII) using all kind of different software using frame interpolation (shake, after effects, compressor, avisynth) and it just wont work for critical content, you always get artifacts and a strange CGI feel.
i've heard that the really expensive hardware boxes (100'000+) are supposed to do a good job, but personally i doubt that they are flawless if you watch it on a big screen.
so in short, 24p/25p is a must for stuff intended for a cinema release, hope canon can fix that but i'm not so sure if it's even possible with a simple firmware upgrade.
chris
Ive actually had some good results with Episode Pro converting 5D MKII footage 30 to 25 fps using the Advanced Framerate Converter setting in Episode. It takes time, about 2 hours for 11 minutes of footage on a MacBook Pro 2,4ghz, output format QT ProRes HQ 720p. You will get minor interpolation errors here and there but I really think thats not a big problem. 25fps would be good to have but if i would have to choose I would go for 40mbit H264 720p setting....... Ive really seen the limits of H264 compression in this camera. Looks amazing most of the times but with lots of gradients in a scene and you will have the compression crawling all around the place.
Mikael
jason, i know what you're discussing, but i'm not discussing. i live in a 50hz country and i shoot film and video at different frame rates and shutter speeds, with different kinds of lighting, in different countries with different line frequencies on a regular basis and i've been doing so for many years. i don't feel any need to discuss things that are this basic, if you don't trust me just look it up.
Mattias sorry my misunderstanding, im sure your right but no need to explain anything any further, i'm just a Director so you'd need to speak slowly and use small words anyway.
Hey,
there is rumors that 60D has 24p. is that a contender against gh1?
http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/06/60d-spec-list-cr15/
still trying to figure out which camera to buy this year.
Just a heads up. First 5D Mark II hack package released.. WOW!
http://vimeo.com/5267475
http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/237747-magic-lantern-firmware-released.html
Full release notes:
* Only works with Canon firmware version 1.1.0
* Only the external mic input is supported
* Canon firmware will restart if LiveView mode is exited or powersave
* HDMI, USB and composite video output are disabled
* Zebras can not be disabled, threshold is not configurable, color can not be changed
* Canon’s onscreen menus will not function correctly (configure everything before booting the Magic Lantern firmware)
* Picture Style button will bring up an event viewer
* Digital zoom works
* Button remapping is currently disabled
* ALC is disabled
* Digital gain is fixed at +12 dB
* Analog gain is set to +10 dB
* Windcut (highpass filter) is disabled
* Lowpass filter is enabled with default params
* EQ params are at the default settings