Dear Canon, 24p Please
Saturday, September 20, 2008 at 10:15AM
Reader Eugenia commented on my last post (the 60th comment!) that she’d called Canon’s product feedback line and politely requested a choice of HD video frame rates on the 5D MarkII. If you care about 24p support on the 5D and would like to see it added in a future firmware update, please do the same.
Eugenia wrote:
I called (800) 828-4040, for the US. I pressed then the 3rd option, and the guy was set up to take feedback immediately…
She requested both 24 and 25 fps modes, as well as the NTSC speeds of 29.97 and 23.976 fps. I plan on simply requesting 23.976, and mentioning that as an owner of the original 5D, this feature alone would be enough to make me upgrade immediately.
Please do call and make your voice heard. This blog has gotten a record number of visits and comments in the last few days. There are definitely enough of us who care about this to catch Canon’s attention.
Reader Comments (33)
It'd be great if they included other modes... like a variable frame rate, just the way a recent casio slr does. it'd be perfect if those cameras could record at 18, 12, 6, 2, 1 fps for timelapses, or 48, 56, 60, 120, 180 fps for slow motion. if n ugly casio slr can, a canon should.
A similar effort was made with the HV20 to get them to publish their pulldown flags in a way that let editing applications properly work with the pseudo 24P that it puts out.
I think I recall a pretty mammoth thread on DVXUser about it.
The result: nada!
Best wishes with this effort, hope you get some positive feedback from the company!
Stu, please don't underestimate the importance of 29.97 against 30.00. Except through an AE's plugin, and through a very manual way on Vegas, all other video editors resample instead of retiming the video if you want to export in 29.97 at the end. This resampling creates severe ghosting in the final export! The problem is that not only most editors don't let you re-time, but most people won't even know of the problem!
IMHO, it as important to ask for 29.97 (for those who need it, especially wedding professionals), as it is for 23.976. Thx!
I just called cannon and requested 23.976..the guy said that they've received"quit a few calls" about the issue, so good job guys!
Eugenia, most NLEs that I know of will let you either work in a true 30 fps timeline or let you cleanly re-interpret the frame rate of source clips from 30 to 29.97.
I know 29.97 is important to 30p fans, but as you may have noticed, I am not one of those!
>most NLEs that I know of will let you either work in a true 30 fps timeline or let you cleanly re-interpret the frame rate of source clips from 30 to 29.97.
That's the problem, they don't do exactly that. If you want to export in 29.97, they resample, they don't re-time. And when you resample, there is extreme ghosting appearing at the end product. Even on AE you need to tell it specifically to not resample, and on Vegas too. All other editors I know (FCP/FCE/Premiere/Pinnacle/Edius), don't have the option to retime at all (they resample by default). So at least for those who do want to shoot 30p, this is a big deal. Same thing will happen if you go from 24.00 to 23.976, the tools used need to support this kind of operation without resampling.
Hm, I just worked with an editor who managed to somehow re-interpret the frame rate of a bunch of FCP clips from 29.97 to 23.976 (not the exact issue here, but similar), but I have no idea how he did it. I sure can't see where it's done in FCP. Maybe he used Cinema Tools.
Premier Pro does what you want Eugenia—it has Interpret Footage settings that let you change clip frame rates without interpolating. I just used this feature to re-interpret some LX2 clips from 30 fps to 29.97, and those clips then work perfectly in a 29.97 timeline.
Not sure what's happening to the audio when it does this though!
if they did do this, would it hurt their line ups of HDVs? (xlh1a, xha1) which could make this less likely to happen
dcloud, I have no idea how Canon sees this, but here are some thoughts on that:
* Would it really? A DLSR that shoots video might be really interesting, but would large numbers of people really choose that over a dedicated HD video camera?
* And if they do, wouldn't Canon rather capture that business rather than hand it over to Nikon?
Canon clearly put effort into making the HD movies from the 5D MkII useful. 24p would make it more useful. We're not asking for anything outside the sphere of what they've established.
Also, as much as we all love 24p, I don't imagine that the vast majority of Canon HD camcorder buyers use it. It seems more likely that 30p would cut into their video market than would 24p.
Well, I'm not so sure if Canon cares about these kind of considerations. When the HV30 came out, the press releases were all aglow with how they now both had 24P and 30P and how 30P was useful because it was easy to change 30P into 15P (the semi-default webstandard) etc.
But then the HV30 came to Europe. With as only option 25P. Not 24, not 30. Certainly not both. But 25p. Because European Youtube videos only run at 12.5 FPS I guess.
Since I have no way of making this and can't find anything useful via Google & YouTube I might just as well ask here... can someone please post a video with 24p and 30p in direct comparison (cameras side by side or whatever?
I'm being serious btw... simply claiming 24p looks ohh so different from 30p doesn't convince me. I understand there are other technical issues at stake but I would really like to see the different look (if there is one).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Canon and everyone else offering options (as it is simply a software issue) and give everyone what they want.
Hey guys, it seems that my husband thinks we are all crazy somehow for wanting 24p. http://jbq.livejournal.com/155144.html" REL="nofollow">Have a read. ;-)
My husband is a prosumer photographer (he owns some serious equipment including the original 5D), and he has a background in video processing as software engineer (these days he works for Google though, for Android).
Do you agree with him? The only reason we haven't pre-ordered the 5D-MII you see it's because of my own reluctance regarding its frame rates. Should I fold to his opinion, or stand my ground and wait for a firmware upgrade and only then go for it?
Eugenia, with much respect I can't help but notice that both you and your husband have a penchant for telling other people what's good for them.
If he likes 30p then he should be delighted with the 5D MkII as-is. But to insinuate that others are wrong or misguided in wanting 24p is just plain rude.
I think you have misunderstood me a bit. I am not personally against 24p. I have used it myself in a couple of my projects. It's true though that I am not a huge proponent either, I like progress. In the last 80 years, everything has progressed in cinema technologies, except the frame rate!
But I am definitely not against it as in "you should never use it because I say so". There are cases where 24p is warranted. For example, in VFX projects, it's much faster and cheaper to design and render 24 fps rather than 60. Or, when you use high action scenes (e.g. man to man combat), the fewer frames, the more realistic it looks because you have less visual information as to how these people really combated each other. So I am not against it. I am just not sure though that when a random Joe buys an HV20 just so he can shoot his kid's birthday in 24p is sane.
It's all in good conversation spirit.
i don't know. everything i've ever done has been shown either on tv or the big screen, often both, so for me saying that most footage is for 60hz computer screens is very far from the truth. either way 24p can be easily and "losslessly" converted to film, 23.976p, 60i, 59.97i, 25p, 50i, while 30p can only be converted to 60i. as for the morgan spurlock argument read it again. it says he shot 60i and got an academy award. had he shot 30p maybe he wouldn't even have gotten a decent film print. go figure. i think what eugenia's husband is saying is that 30p is fine for consumers and still photographers who shoot a cip now and then. he fails to understand that the people who want 24p are from the indie filmmaking community. (i don't spend all this time and money so i can shoot my kid's birthday. why is that guy always brought up?)
Thank you Mattias. This blog is not for that guy.
yes i think the issue here is that both 24p and 30p can coexist on the camera so why is anyone having a problem with us wanting 24p? and yes indie filmmakers and the like want 24p for all the reasons stated above. i dont think it will eat into any of their other markets and it will light a fire under the DSLR market for sure.
http://tinyurl.com/3eq9zb
heres a link to a new prototype "g" camera (not the G1) from panasonic that is actually dedicated to HD video even with a built in microphone. no specs yet but id be curious to see what frame rates they think are necessary for a dedicatedly marketed cam.
After pre-ordering a 5D mkII, I will be calling Canon tomorrow about 24p (actually, 23.976, which is slightly more convenient).
With that said, I've always sort of liked 30p. I got very used to it while working with the GL1 and GL2 cameras. Stu, I know you don't agree, but to my eyes it feels just about as filmic as 24p.
And these days, there are an increasing number of distribution options that don't involve printing to film... In other words, fear of filmout is not enough to dampen my enthusiasm for this camera. (Have you seen the stills from Laforet's video?!)
Don't get me wrong; I would much prefer to shoot 24p, and am kind of dumbfounded that they didn't include it. They must have thought consumers would prefer 30p. (I don't buy the argument that they nixed it to protect their video products. As Stu points out, 30p poses more of a cannibalization threat than 24p.)
Good call Stu (pun intended, lololol!!!)! I'll give Canon a call tomorrow and see if I can get some amigos to do the same =)
All ready called the number myself. thank for sharing. requested the ntsc 24p and ntsc 29.97. I will most likely by this camera anyway for still work. I have an EX3 to shoot 24p(23.967) HD.
"If you really want cinematography to be recognized as art"
I guess 70 years of Oscars and other awards for cinematographers have really gone by in a blink.
BTW, I just left some feedback through the 800 number and found that you can write your own emails to the following address:
customerfeedback@cits.canon.com
This will allow the filmmaking community to go into great detail as to what framerate options we would like and why it's so important.
"I plan on simply requesting 23.976"
Come on, guys. The chance of getting anything done is slight, but let's concentrate on asking for the most straightforward option: 24 FPS. Don't dilute your request with NTSC crap, which we should be vigorously ushering OUT in our bold new era of digital TV.
You don't need to resample 30 & 24 FPS footage for an NTSC timeline; slightly retiming your audio is a far, far better solution.
In Europe it makes no sense to work with 30 frames. That makes the camera worthless for me, because I cant integrate 5D Mark II footage in other projects.
But with 25p I would buy it at once (but no other Canon Video Cam)
Benn
24fps is a necessary function. 30fps is useless. Canon, please wake up
24fps is a necessary function. 30fps is useless. Canon, please wake up
Please, 24 fps is a must!
If it is physically possible, 24p would make the 5dMII so much more attractive to Indie filmmakers. I did a 2 camera shoot with a Panasonic HVX200 and my 5dMII and the picture quality is much nicer on the 5d, but as far a the "look" the HVX wins because of the 24p.
the main problem with 30p is that it's not supported on DVD which only works in 60i and 24p.
Panasonic always does a better job of listen to it's customers the DVX 100 and the GH1 being prime examples. Come on Canon get with it.
Unfortunately 30p works just fine on (NTSC) DVDs.
24 fps on the 7d and not on the 5d ii, I really feel screwed with my 5d ii purchase a few months ago, particularly since there is no good technical justification for not providing the firmware update.
Please, 24Fps and maybe 32, 36, 48 and 60Fps
that would be nice!